What do you guys think of the Orkut Communities where the common underlying purpose of their origin is CASTE? There are so many of them viz. Iyers, Brahmins, Iyengars, Panchals, Patels, etc. In India, surnames are the prime indicators of which section of the society one belongs to. Asking for one's surname is a rampant thing in Maharashtra. Whenever I am asked my name, people are never satisfied if I say my name is Shobha. Their immediate question would be, 'Shobha what?' thus emphasizing the need for a surname. This is one of the ways to identity the caste you belong to.
Personally, I am extremely uncomfortable being a part of such communities. For me, joining a community where the only thing I have in common with others is the fact we all belong to a SAME CASTE is something I am just not comfortable with. Sometimes I wonder what could be discussed in forums like these.... There can be interesting discussions based on understanding of certain rituals, festivals and lot of other stuff. But I still wonder, do we need a forum based on a certain CASTE for that? Can't people do it in any other way? Most of the discussions I have seen are sad {my personal opinion}
Even though Orkut represents just a small fraction of our society, it says so much about us. In an already polarised society like ours, it is sad that we resort to grouping together on the basis of CASTE, something that's an inherited factor of our life. It's funny that one tends to associate oneself with CASTE, something that we had never consiously decided to be a part of. In the backdrop of the whole reservation wrangle, such associations just show how deeply casteist our society is.
But I guess that communities like this will never cease to exist since CASTE is an identity factor for many. I feel such groupisms only are a subtle reflection of the casteist bent of our society. It's an irony that people group themselves by alienating themselves from the mainstream. However, I guess it's quite common. Technology only enhances the propogation of certain age old beliefs. While earlier one would have Kerala Samaj, Bohri Samaj, Protestant societies etc, now we have their online versions in Orkut. I have seen that strong bonds amongst the community provide great social security for the people. However, I wonder should social security be achieved at the cost of alienating onself from the mainstream?
Some clarifications:
- I have mentioned in my post that Orkut is just a representation of our society in general. It is not THE SOCIETY :| Please credit me with some basic intelligence. Read the post carefully again....
- Also, I personally find it stupid to have a community formed on the basis of CASTE. I personally feel that CASTE system should be redundant. Such groupings still reinforce the old superiority or inferiority complexes depending on which ever side one belongs to. If not directly, then subtly it definitely does. I don't think it is an issue to form a community based on lingustic lines. I don't think it reinforces any age old streotypes of superiority just on the basis of association to a particular language. However CASTE does. It reinforces all the sick, sad stereotypes which I personally don't think are relevant {or ideally should not be relevant} any more.
- It does not bother me since I feel it is everyone has a right to make their own choices. However such communities amuse me to a great extent since I never had thought that I will see an Orkutised version of a Patel Samaj, or a Dalit Samaj etc. For me, my CASTE isn't my identity. Unfortunately for many others, it still is.
53 comments:
I think this is "stretching it". All discussions on Orkut are stupid or sad, as are most communities. Orkut does say a lot about us but saying society is casteist (I agree) based on some orkut members? Maybe yes, but it's a futile exercise. There are better ways to show/attack/talk about casteism, other angles to approach it from.
Do I sound pompous? :)
Well....I am not talking about the content in such communities, but the very motivation to form such communities. I'm sorry if my post gave a different picture.
Shobha
Also, as I said, such communities are a mirror of our a casteist soicety. It was just a simple observation. This post wasn't meant to be indepth at all :p
It doesn't matter any more, you always sound pompous. Anirudh = Pompousness :p :p :p So don't ask stupid questions like this :p
Shobha
wht do u mean by "mainstream"? can be interpreted in many ways. i really think it shouldn't matter in my opinion coz there are other things that need more attention. the very fact we are allowed to form communities leads to groupism then you know what awaits us... people will always be divided be it caste class creed or sex...as long as they are not hurting the sentiments of others i don't think it shld b a problem. btw nice to have you back :)
There is no denying that Indian Society is highly casteist. Communities based on caste is just a reflection of that. You are right in observing that these communities existed for a long time, just that now they an online presence too.
I have tried to question similar things in my post Should we identify ourselves with our caste? Do stop by and let me know what you think.
To say that indian soceity is casteist because Orkut has many communities based on cast is like saying all chinese look like japs coz the 10chini pics u saw on the net look like japs.
TRIVIA:Only 7% of Orkut members are Indian(67% brazilians!)
I would'nt say Indians are casteist...Indian culture is...
One..coz in any Indian family inter-caste marriages are still taboo..and still raise eyelids.
Two...all our rozi-roti and gyaan are still dependent on caste (70% of populasun is rural remember)...be it educasun in college after matric or employment in laloos railways(nationalised banks for that matter)
Third...Indian states were created keeping the linguistic majority in mind...and most indians are now dispersed over states other than thier original ones..difrent countries as well...so what will give them an identity and belonging?Caste of course
Unfortunately the locational bonding is yet to form...
So you wouldn't find a "Mumbaites in NY" community...
and whats so surprising if you find a "Tam-brahms in Delhi" group or "Agarwals in California" or simply "Patels" ...(Vishwananthans maybe... there is one methinks!)on Orkut
I am a member of one such community and the discussions I had with other members about the dying Konk literature and traditions were enriching to say the least.
I would say Indians are casteist only when some Orkutter would deny to scrap in my scrapbook because I am NOT sc/st..and I dont see tht happening ..do you?
Shobha: Arre.. dil pe mat le yaar! Let me fill you in on something! Most Orkut comms have been commandeered for just one purpose - to phataofy gals. This is demonstrated by what you have said here - I would say Indians are casteist only when some Orkutter would deny to scrap in my scrapbook because I am NOT sc/st..and I dont see tht happening ..do you? I am sure, if you are Orkut, that is, you receive like 100 scraps a week, asking to "make fraandship with you"! :D
So we are still safe.. he he.
Dodo: You said...
"people will always be divided be it caste class creed or sex"
Well, let them...it's their choice. But it is also my right to write about what I feel is wrong. See, the communities hurting our sentiments etc. is a secondary question. I am not comfortable with their very reason of their formation i.e. THE CASTE which I personally feel should be redundant.
Polite Indian: I will check the link.
Atlas: Read before commenting. I mentioned in my post that Orkut represents a very small fraction of our society. I don't know how it escaped your eyes, should I donate my specs? :p
I would'nt say Indians are casteist...Indian culture is...
What were you thinking when you made a statement like that? :| :| I repeat again, Indian society is super casteist.
I would say Indians are casteist only when some Orkutter would deny to scrap in my scrapbook because I am NOT sc/st..and I dont see tht happening ..do you?
Check my reply to Dodo's comment.
Anantha: Dil pe nahi liya maine...Also, I did not say that...that was my friend Atlas maaroing that dialogue :p Well...I agree, most Orkut communities are formed only for pataoing girls :p All the Iyer meetups, Patel meetups n all happen solely for this...hehe...
Anyways, long time...how be you?
I have some contradicting lines in your posts for you
"Even though Orkut represents just a small fraction of our society.."
"...Orkut is just a representation of our society in general"
Generalisation based on small fractions?When did this start?
"There can be interesting discussions based on understanding of certain rituals, festivals and lot of other stuff. But I still wonder, do we need a forum based on a certain CASTE for that?"
Self-Contradicting lines one after the other...most traditions,rituals,festivals differ from caste to caste...if people from a particular caste want to come up with a forum to discuss them and keep them alive in an already forgetful soceity whats the harm?
Unfortunately for a scribe you are looking things in only one perspective,membership of a caste based group causes alienation from the mainstream,stereotypes are furthered by being members of a caste based group,technology is enhancing age old beliefs,and such.
I look from an outsiders point of view where being a member of a caste based group gives me fresh insights into traditions and rituals,okay some of them can be called outrageous,but after being educated (which I see most Orkuters are) and be able to think rationally one can make thier decisions on whether to take them or leave them.
Ya know,my defiance to your hardlined stand is justified because of one more thing...I have found many elderly net-savvy people in such communities on ORkut urging the younger lot to identify the good points in thier caste-based traditions and discard the not so good ones.I know these very people would stand up when a caste decides to discard its stereo types.
I am sorry if I have taken some lines of the post and put them out of context,but then, had to make my point.
:)
BTW casteist post up :P
well it frm person to person. perspective to perspective :P (this coment can b used 4 everything :D) on a serious note if u r bothered abt caste other people are bothered abt other things. i spoke 2u abt this i aint against ur opinion. i respect that. to each his own.
Atlas: "...Orkut is just a representation of our society in general"
Generalisation based on small fractions?When did this start?
Our society as a whole is casteist. After seeing the forums, I have reached the conclusion that the casteist nature of our society have been reflected in Orkut too. I have my reservations to such groupings because I do not attribute my identity to a particular CASTE. You might be...good for you.
Also, I firmly believe that one doesn't need a FORUM based on CASTE to discuss about its traditionals, rituals and all which is what I have emphaisized in my post. There can be other ways too. If you think you need, its your opinion, not mine.
I have nothing against communities. However I repeat, I am not comfortable with communities formed on the basis of a CASTE.
It's a very healthy trend that some elders are asking the younger lot of discard the not-so-good rituals. However exceptions are not examples. :)
My views out here have not nothing to do with the profession I belong to. It's weird to say that my opinions are uni-dimensional since I'm a scribe. I wouldn't agree with you on that.
My whole basis of argument is highly utopian. I wish for a casteless society which is absolutely impossible to happen. But these are my views and I respect yours too.
Dodo: :)
Shobha
It is almost impossible to be truly witty when you are bone tired.
Some observations on your post
· I agree that Orkut or any collection of people (however large or small) do tend to mirror society at large.
· There are some groups that you identify yourself with and some, which you don’t. For example I would not be part of a community of people who speak Tamil or of a community of people who are Iyers or a group or people who love chemistry. Now factually speaking, I do speak Tamil, I am an Iyer and I hate chemistry beyond everything. However I do not wish to derive my identity from any of these three. To me there is no difference between these three communities. There may be people who may want to be part of any one of these 3 simple because they feel an affinity for it. It is simply a matter of preference.
· I see no reason why drawing your identity from a caste is especially worse than drawing your identity from your class or language. It is simply a way of bonding. Also it is very dangerous to conclude that all the people who are part of the community called “Brahmins” subscribe to all the beliefs that some other Brahmins might have, or are believed historically to have.
· You feel that there are people who think that they are great just because they are Brahmins. However this is true of most other fields. People think that are very superior because they can speak English, or because they are Indians or because they live in USA. All these people are ridiculously wrong and foolish and irritate me just as much as the caste thing is irritating you.
· Another argument that you are making is that caste cannot be chosen. But then a large amount of things in life that people feel proud about are not chosen. Beauty, money, the school that we attend, the place that we grow up in, parents, ability to do certain things and intelligence are some example. These are all things that people identify themselves with. None of these have a real reason to feel superior. Why should identifying yourself with caste be especially ‘unfortunate’ than all these things?
· In a caste-ridden society like ours, sticking to their caste has proved to be the greatest strength for many of the downtrodden castes. Why take that away from them by ridiculing it?
· My point is simply that these Orkut groups are merely a harmless way of giving a sense of belonging. And the process of identifying yourself with a caste is just one of the many groups that we move around in as social animals. Each group always thinks that they are greater. They add colour to the process of living. All we need to be careful about is that these little prejudices and groups don’t get recognised by the state. Because that would start a whole lot of real problems.
· On a more personal note, I find it strange that you, who are finding a mere Orkut group (which is in no way formal or important or recognised) so disturbing were not at all averse to the government of this country recognising caste as a valid institution on the basis of which reservations will be made in schools.
On a more personal note, I find it strange that you, who are finding a mere Orkut group (which is in no way formal or important or recognised) so disturbing were not at all averse to the government of this country recognising caste as a valid institution on the basis of which reservations will be made in schools.
Well, let me respond to this portion of your comment. Rest I will later.
Firstly, I am still struggling to find a stand as far as the reservation wrangle is concerned. So it would be wrong to presume that I am not at all averse to the reservations based on caste. It's my personal thought that there shouldn't be castes per se. However, unfortunately the reality is something different. As I mentioned earlier, it's a utopian thought. I belong to the sheer minority of people for whom CASTE might not be an identity as opposed to the vast majority for whom it is. Therefore I realise that the reality of caste and various aspect associated with it is something I cannot completely ignore. The casteless society that I wish for has nothing to do with the actual reality. It is just a wish i harbour.
I remember having conversations with you on the reservation matter. But trust me, I am still struggling to arrive at an opinion myself since I feel there are so many aspects that I don't know and I can arrive at a conclusion only after that. Also, the reservation wrangle is such that I personally cannot have a stand which is black or white.
I really don't know if I made sense. :|
Shobha
I think Divya has put the very points i made in a better way...
BTW nice post..had myself debating something after a loooong time!
valid argument but i do think its stretching it a little too much. i guess its based on perspective. Let me put it this way.. there are Orkut communities for people with the name "Surabhi". Is that polarization?? I agree some people "might" be looking at it from a caste-ist angle. But i didnt...i just found it humorous to see an "Iyer' or "Iyengar" community. So as i said in the beginning..it depends on the manner in which we approach this subject. In other words, there are much more serious arguments we could have against caste-ism rather than base it on some funny looking community on Orkut.
Ashwin
welll..have still not reached a conclusion or real opinion on this..but if u are saying must be true;)lol...
anyways..
was just wondering that if thats what it is all about-a casteless society cuz it encourages prominence of discrimination...
then I think i wud also go for a society which is not based on division of society into various religions/or class but plain
humanity...
i respect ur utopian view but the fact is there wud be such seclusions and groupisms, cuz sumhow i feel thats how it internally is. the point is to deal with the existing situation without adhereing to the levels that it ascribes....
that is identifying with ur ascribed status as well as not distancing urself from other sections..or for that matter by not subscribing to the feeling of superiority or inferiority...
infact on a 2nd thot...am glad ppl came up with communities..which represent that we are one inspite of being divided into various stratas and sections..its accepting the truth... and working for the better...working for the the utopian u see...its accepting the truth n may be not being hypocrites..
i repeat...am subject to change on this topic .this was just a point of view...and I NEED A REPLY ;)
-shonu(sonali) (http://titzbitz.rediffblogs.com
I never use Orkut... but I heard abt the caste groups there.. dunno why ppl should drag them along even at a place like orkut.
Right from the time of issuing a birth certificate , the factor of caste gets asserted into us by the government of a secular nation.Unless a conspicuous effort is made by the educated mass, this factor of caste will remain entrenched in our lives..The roots of more devilish terrorism, quotas and votebank politics come from these..
aaaah Yawn yaaawn yaawn :))
Yeah there are lots of idiots on Orkut for whom Caste is a factor to be proud of. Unless you are proud of something why would you feel a need for a community ?
I can understand people being proud for other reasons but why caste ? It's like saying I am proud to be a Nazi. Hope they crack down on these communities.
It is OK to form groups on factors that are not detrimental to the society as whole. But to form groups based on things like caste is difinitely harmful.
Let us take an example of the Iyer community on orkut. Will they welcome a dalit in that community? My guess is no because he doesn't belong to the same caste. Now stretch this example, if a few orkut members from Iyer community become real life friends and they start meeting in person and form a good friend circle, will they then accept a dalit as a friend? Especially when what brought these friends together is CASTE?
My personal opinion is that the caste should go away but there is no clear cut way to make that happen. One thing that we can definitely aim for is making caste irrelevant in a way that there is no benefit nor a handicap belonging to a specific caste.
Communities like these do not help.
And I fail to understand how a caste based comunity helps in pataoing girls? Is that what girls are looking for? Casteist Men?
Ashwin: Well, I am just disgusted with the fact that caste becomes an identity for many orkut users. I have issues with the motivation to form such groups. I don't think I am stretching it too far. it is just my observation.
Atlas: Good :D
Shonu: As i told you earlier, we need relegion. Humankind needs something that it can believe in completely. I feel relegion is important. We cannot do anything about class. For if there is someone extremely rich, there would be someone poor. But I guess we could easily do away with caste. Since with caste, coems along a baggaage of whole lot of nonsense which is no longer relevant anymore.
I agree with you when you say the point is to deal with the existing situation without adhereing to the levels that it ascribes.... But again, what you say is utopian as well. It is simply not bound to happen since CASTE varries with it the baggage of inferiority and superiority. Sad, but true.
infact on a 2nd thot...am glad ppl came up with communities..which represent that we are one inspite of being divided into various stratas and sections..its accepting the truth... and working for the better...working for the the utopian u see...its accepting the truth n may be not being hypocrites..
Did not understand what you meant. CASTE only results into polarization of society, nothing else.
Chakra: Wish I had the answer :p
Ajith: Well, true.
Bombayite: So you have a yawning fit followed by a laughing fit? :p Funny :p
Anon: Unless you are proud of something why would you feel a need for a community ? You just said it. BTW who be you? Also, I don't see any reason in cracking down any community. it is not a solution at all. bans do not serve any purpose. Just as I have a right to hold an opinion and criticize them, the members have a right to do whatever they want.
Polite Indian: There are lot of hypothetical situations you have cited which can have several inferences. There cannot be any absolute results. However, its really sad that one tends to join many communities like this to find suitable guys/girls. I know couple of people like that ehehehe...
hmm *thinking*...
and there i had meant... no matter what, caste as an identity will remin and if such communities get formed the exchange of the information(the informative ones that is!) can build better harmony..cuz india is a casteist society afterall.
anyways...nice comment from u:)
-shonu...
Caste is the result of generations of migrations and segregation of different ethnic groups in India. The more "powerful" of these groups want to keep their genes separate from the rest. This is the crux of the structure of society in India (called "Hindu" for lack of any other overall term).
To change this is to inherently give up what is commonly known as "Hindu" society. Every "Hindu" mythology is full of references to the importance of caste.
Those who talk of caste as same as class or profession forget that one can still change class or profession, but cannot change caste after birth.
This is why "Hindu"s do not convert people of other religions...who would want to join at the bottom of the ladder? Could one convert to become a pundit? Nope.
Who can deny this?
To get rid of caste, one will have to give up being "Hindu" as one has known it for centuries.
I think it's sad that caste is still such an integral part of the Indian society and you are right in saying that Orkut although a small fraction does represent the Indian society and that's coz it represents the educated lot and the rest well if the educated class is casteist.
I do not agree that caste is just another way of harmless bonding because it has many repercussions not only on the lower castes but the whole society in general.
Also, the inferiority and superiority complex that you talked about. I think it's just unethical and immoral to be in a caste based community.
And people have absolutely no reason have such communities to discuss customs & traditions.
The funniest part is people trying to say it's ok looking at the reservation fiasco. Dears, the reservations are there BECAUSE of such casteist thinking.
The elders can advise people of all castes why do they need their caste children only to learn? Or maybe this exactly is what they teach. Casteism. How our caste is superior to the rest.
If the cream of the society has such a casteist mindset, there's no way we can progress...
'caste' in cyber community is interesting. The nature of caste is such that it reproduces, albeit through marriage system.
So, even in cyber world, it manifest...more like a crutch. Since for most of Indians, 'love marriage' is a luxary, and the 'market' of marriage is still protected.
We know we can always fall back upon tradition unlike the western teenager, who grows up in a competetive environment. There he has to display his individuality to impress others and thus learn more 'aggressive dating behavior'.
It is our underdeveloped dating skills (and ability to manifest individuality)that find refuse in the historical caste based reservation system.
Maybe you (the author) are getting a little carried away.
(As far as I know) Most marriages in India are "arranged" and caste, along with language based communities form one of the basic (initial) criteria for these arranged marriages.. (then come educational and professional qualifications, financial standing etc..)
So, Orkut is (probably) being used as a substitute for "shaadi.com" or similar matrimonial websites which (I believe) are widely used by Indians..
Now, whether arrange marriages are good or bad, or whether caste as a criteria for arrange marriages is good or bad, are different debates, my point is Orkut caste-based communities don't seem like anything significantly malicious.
(Unless, of course, those caste-based communities actually have bigoted/discriminatory discussion about other castes..)
- a redditor
http://reddit.com/info/w2yy/comments
Shoba ,you are right.I strongly believe you that Cast makes a big difference in our life in India.But time will come and everyone understands this reality.I know it takes a long time but it will happen my friend.
God bless you and your work
Casteism is on the rise, coz you have castist policies such as reservations in India which remind people about their caste. If you abolished caste based reservations most people would not care about it.
Also if you notice the membership numbers for the castes based communities on Orkut some people are proud to be born in the particular caste and others aren't. Explains the low numbers in the community dalits.
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Personally, I am extremely uncomfortable being a part of such communities. For me, joining a community where the only thing I have in common with others is the fact we all belong to a SAME CASTE is something I am just not comfortable with. Sometimes I wonder what could how to lose weight fast be discussed in forums like these.... There can be interesting discussions based on understanding of certain rituals, festivals and lot of other stuff. But I still wonder, do we need a forum based on a certain CASTE for that?
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